EDWARD SNOWDEN Everything about Donald Trump

Highly Recommended. Pay attention to the TRUTH and STOP throwing WHISTLE BLOWERS in PRISON. Why 2 tier legal system? So MANY LIARS from the TOP down yet those with REAL power don't get incarcerated. Lying under oath.

we're here in a hotel room in Moscow not 0:07 your home 0:09 no reporters have interviewed you in 0:12 person at home why is that well given my 0:16 situation right I'mI'm kind of it all 0:20 shall we say less stable environment 0:22 that the most people are I don't like to 0:25 bring people to my home because I don't 0:30 know who they are 0:31 who's coming with them and we have to 0:33 remember that technically my government 0:36 right or wrong considers me to be a 0:39 fugitive in exile right there is still 0:42 technically a manhunt that's following 0:45 me around wherever I go 0:47 so I don't really want to make life any 0:50 easier for people were trying to silence 0:54 me to think US officials know where you 0:56 live you know where you are i think they 0:58 have a general idea at this point you 1:02 know after three years of the can't 1:04 figure it out 1:06 they're probably not doing their job 1:07 very well but I don't think they know 1:10 specifically where I am pretty careful 1:12 you would like to move around from 1:15 apartment to apartment right now but I'm 1:18 not late on the Underground Railroad or 1:20 anything like that I just try to live a 1:23 careful and quiet kind of humble life 1:25 and I don't want to be uprooted by 1:28 publicity and reporters outside my home 1:31 definitely not agent sounds like my home 1:33 do you live in Russian government 1:35 housing know how do you afford your rent 1:38 I speak number of different places I've 1:41 been incredibly fortunate to enjoy as 1:44 much support as I have when I came 1:47 forward I expected to be entirely alone 1:51 i didn't really have a plan for the day 1:54 after my only focus was working with the 1:57 journalists to get the truth of what was 2:00 going on in violation of the law back 2:03 into public hands so I've really had to 2:07 sort of build the airplane as its 2:11 falling but we've reached a point where 2:14 actually we're flying 2:17 can you walk around freely the streets 2:20 of Moscow and not be recognized 2:23 I walked here are you ever recognized I 2:26 am sometimes you know it's funny 2:28 actually uh if I walk out on the street 2:32 people have no idea who I am if I walk 2:38 into a computer store everyone in the 2:41 store will immediately recognize me i 2:43 think it's one of those things like the 2:45 way your brain catches on to the 2:46 Association it's been more than three 2:49 years since you arrived here in Moscow 2:51 if you could use one word to describe 2:55 those three years what would it be 2:57 surprising i think most Americans 3:04 particularly ones who like myself worked 3:07 for the CIA the NSA they have a very 3:10 particular view of Russia I was 3:14 terrified to come here because I didn't 3:20 expect to stay and I got trapped but 3:24 since I've been here I've been very 3:26 successful actually in avoiding 3:28 government entanglements was really 3:31 afraid that they were going to pressure 3:32 me that we're going to follow me around 3:33 and of course I've said before and sworn 3:38 testimony that they did try in the 3:40 airport but I had a journalist with me 3:42 and I gave him the state farm and I said 3:44 look guys don't have any information I 3:47 don't have any documents i'm not going 3:48 to cooperate and surprisingly i think 3:54 due to the political complexities of 3:57 this situation they had a tough choice 3:59 they went 4:01 we can either try to lean on this guy 4:03 right or we can leave him alone and for 4:07 once maybe Russia will get some good PR 4:10 out of this now i think 4:16 the most surprising part of this is not 4:19 the fact that the government has left me 4:22 along for the most part but the fact 4:27 that Russia is not this disastrous and 4:31 sad place they have very troubled 4:34 politics as many countries do and there 4:37 are a lot of reforms that I feel as 4:39 American desperately need to be made but 4:43 it's a beautiful country and the regular 4:45 people who are going about their lives 4:46 everyday want the same things that we as 4:49 Americans do and it seems like that 4:53 should be obvious but for me and I think 4:56 many others it really wasn't a lot has 4:58 changed since you've been here and as 5:02 you know we have a new president elect 5:04 what do you think of Donald Trump try 5:08 not to but I think we all have to this 5:15 is this really feels like a year in 5:20 which everybody was wrong about 5:21 everything so many people had prediction 5:25 so many people had ideas and i think 5:27 most Americans whether they work in the 5:30 press whether they were ordinary people 5:32 simply could not imagine we would be 5:35 where we are today and yet here we are 5:38 now the reason I say try not to think 5:43 about Donald Trump is that we should be 5:46 focusing on people we should be focusing 5:49 on the directions the impacts the 5:50 policies that this will lead to 5:52 presidents come and go policies stay the 5:57 Executive Director of Human Rights Watch 5:58 can Roth said just a few days ago that 6:02 he thinks we're seeing the rise of a new 6:05 kind of leader in different countries 6:07 around the world a more authoritarian 6:09 leader who sees rights not necessarily 6:15 as a good thing but as a barrier to 6:18 implementing the will of the majority 6:19 but from my perspective I believe this 6:23 is a fundamentally America 6:24 an idea this is what rights are for 6:27 rights are the only thing that stands 6:31 behind stands between decades and 6:34 centuries of democratic progress and one 6:37 election that changes everything and 6:38 leads to rather than Elaine society a 6:42 tyranny of the majority now that's not 6:44 to say what's coming but when we have 6:48 all three branches of government 6:50 suddenly captured and controlled by a 6:53 single party that is a moment of 6:55 systemic risk and we need to think about 7:00 what that means could be coming what the 7:03 risks are and what we can do as citizens 7:05 how we can be more active and ensuring 7:09 the country that we've built over so 7:11 many years continues to be built in the 7:14 right way I think 7:22 tomorrow is very uncertain right now but 7:28 we shouldn't be afraid of that we should 7:30 recognize that we should prepare for 7:33 that 7:34 don't be afraid be ready 7:37 what worries you at the most about a 7:39 trump presidency the main things that I 7:42 would be concerned about our policies 7:46 that aren't pursuing a positive vision 7:48 they're not thinking about what America 7:52 is really about and how to improve it 7:55 how to retaliate against a small group 7:57 of vulnerable population particular 8:00 class to me 8:04 these don't seem like a particularly 8:07 American directions to be heading now 8:11 this is not to say that I don't want 8:15 this president or any of the president 8:17 to be successful in fact I want every 8:20 president to be successful in building a 8:23 better America but we need to make sure 8:25 that that's what's happening and we 8:29 can't trust that will happen we can't 8:31 wait for somebody to do that if we want 8:34 to be in a better America we have to do 8:37 it ourselves right before the election 8:39 you tweeted quote there may never be a 8:41 safer election which to vote for a third 8:44 option 8:45 yeah any work rats about that tweet you 8:49 know this is one of those things where I 8:50 said you know everybody's been waiting i 8:54 was referencing the New York Times front 8:57 page 1 of 3 where they said Hillary 9:00 Clinton had a ninety-three percent 9:01 chance of winning the election and i 9:04 believe the statistics and I was certain 9:07 she had this in the bag and because of 9:11 that you know it seemed like everything 9:14 was open to possibilities that where the 9:16 election wasn't even really an election 9:18 I was wrong 9:22 do I regret that I don't think I regret 9:27 trusting this district court right 9:29 because i think particularly when we're 9:33 focused on scientific methods of polling 9:35 we need to be able to recognize that 9:38 experts have information they're using 9:40 methods and this should be reliably 9:42 should take this into account before the 9:44 election as you know the DNC and the 9:47 Clinton campaign were both hacked US 9:49 intelligence officials including the 9:52 head of Homeland Security if said they 9:54 believed only Russia senior-most 9:57 officials could have authorized those 9:59 hacks do you think Russia was behind 10:02 those hacks I don't know but as somebody 10:06 who worked in intelligence i certainly 10:08 think it's possible they definitely have 10:10 the capabilities and there is I think a 10:13 broad consensus among us intelligence 10:15 committee officials at least as has been 10:18 sort of promoted in the news that Russia 10:21 did have some responsibility behind this 10:23 but what bothers me about this kind of 10:26 conversation is that the last time there 10:30 was a significant hack that affected the 10:32 united states that we believed had an 10:34 association to a nation-state it was the 10:36 Sony hack which we said North Korea's 10:39 pine the FBI immediately released 10:41 evidence that they believe proved that 10:44 they were behind that attack we haven't 10:46 seen that here and I think we're going 10:49 to have this conversation it should be 10:51 evidence-based other than the fact that 10:53 they've said complimentary things about 10:55 each other why do you think Vladimir 10:57 Putin would want Donald Trump to be 11:00 President or did he simply pour the 11:03 possibility of Hillary Clinton that role 11:07 i think it came down to the idea 11:12 generally right or wrong that Hillary 11:16 Clinton had a very clear set of policies 11:19 that 11:20 [Music] 11:22 Russians would consider to be 11:25 anti-russian Donald Trump's policies 11:29 no one has any idea what they are no one 11:31 has any idea what they mean even for 11:34 himself it seems they change quite 11:38 frequently sometimes within the space of 11:39 weeks sometimes within the space of days 11:41 and they may have preferred uncertainty 11:44 to certainty the DNC and the Clinton 11:47 campaign emails were obtained by 11:49 WikiLeaks I'm just curious how do you 11:51 feel about Julian Assange and its 11:53 wholesale dumping of these emails they 11:58 have a very different policy than I 12:01 followed uh in my work with journalists 12:05 but they have taken a position they 12:07 serve embody a belief that the only way 12:11 they can prove the authenticity of these 12:15 documents is to release them in what 12:18 they call a pristine on tamper condition 12:21 from my perspective I was a very 12:25 different position because of course 12:27 this was not an anonymous like I came 12:29 out behind them i said these are from 12:31 the NSA this is why i am and immediately 12:34 we knew they were real because the 12:35 government came after me with many 12:36 charges and threatened to put me in 12:38 prison for the rest of my life but I 12:43 felt that this was a risk worth taking 12:47 for me because there would be no 12:52 question as to the authenticity of the 12:54 documents which gave me room to instead 12:57 focus on how can this information be 13:01 revealed in the most responsible way to 13:04 fully mitigate any potential actual or 13:07 theoretical risks that could come as a 13:10 result of this journalism and I'm very 13:13 proud of the way that we did that and 13:15 I'm very comfortable with the decisions 13:18 that we make 13:19 let's talk about your partner now the 13:21 pardon Snowden campaign launched in 13:23 September led by backers like george 13:26 soros Twitter CEO Jack Dorsey the ACLU 13:30 what do you think your chances are that 13:33 President Obama well in fact pardon you 13:36 well I'm not counting on it and this is 13:39 the the key here the possibility for 13:43 partner 13:44 it seems to every expert has looked at 13:46 this issue has never been more likely 13:49 and this is a surprise to myself more 13:52 than anyone else like that why do you 13:54 say that 13:54 well just a few days ago we had 15 13:58 members of The Church Committee most 13:59 people may not remember what they are 14:01 but in the nineteen seventies the 14:04 intelligence of organizations went 14:06 through the greatest period of oversight 14:08 of their history they sort of pulled up 14:11 the blankets and looked at what was 14:12 happening at the CIA the NSA the FBI 14:15 they were writing letters to dr. Martin 14:18 Luther King jr. saying that they had 14:20 tapes of what he had done in hotel rooms 14:23 and if he didn't commit suicide 14:25 they were going to release them and 14:27 destroy his reputation they were 14:30 secretly administering psychedelic drugs 14:32 to college students to see the impact 14:34 that would have they're engaging in 14:36 assassination operations that were 14:38 contrary to both American and 14:39 international law all kinds of crazy 14:42 things these individuals who are experts 14:45 in what's going on intelligence at the 14:47 classified level worked for the 14:49 government right these aren't sort of 14:51 hippie reformers or anything like that 14:54 they argued the president obama should 14:59 seriously consider leniency in this case 15:02 they said that this case has caused far 15:05 more benefits to american society which 15:08 i think is uncontroversial at this point 15:10 than any claim terms for which we've 15:12 never seen evidence if you had one 15:14 minute to make your case face-to-face to 15:18 President Obama what would you say to 15:21 convince him to pardon you I wouldn't I 15:25 would respectfully say to the president 15:29 I understand you have accrued 15:32 difficult job no one wants to be a 15:35 whistleblower this is something that's 15:37 hard to do 15:38 it's hard enough to stand up to a bully 15:41 in your life to your boss in the office 15:44 much less the combined might of the 15:49 national security agents of the FBI and 15:51 you know the apparatus of government 15:54 nobody's gonna volunteer for that 15:55 nobody's going to sort of take this as a 15:59 president is going to open floodgates 16:02 but there's one thing that i would hope 16:06 he understands and i think based on his 16:08 recent statements he does he said that 16:14 my actions and this journalism raised 16:18 legitimate concerns 16:19 we're living in a time today we're 16:24 journalism is occurring environment of 16:27 extraordinary threat and as official 16:30 sources of information for the American 16:33 citizen the American voter begin to dry 16:36 up confidential sources the sources upon 16:43 which the best journalism has always 16:46 rely people in government who know the 16:48 reality of what's actually going on 16:50 particularly when the operations of 16:53 government start to go out of bounds are 16:56 critical now and this is America when 17:01 something goes wrong don't we want 17:03 somebody to stand up and say something 17:06 about it 17:07 are you saying it's particularly 17:09 important in a trump administration or 17:12 in a republican-controlled Washington I 17:15 don't think it's about party 17:17 I don't think it's about person i do 17:19 think the incoming president has 17:23 definitely said he plans to break some 17:25 furniture right he would be the last to 17:30 deny this and that means we need to be 17:34 careful that means we need to prepare 17:36 Donald Trump tweeted about you in 2014 17:39 writing Snowden is a traitor in our 17:42 country was great you know what we did 17:44 too 17:44 leaders meanwhile his pick for CIA 17:47 director Kansas Congressman Mike Pompeo 17:49 has called you a liar and a criminal and 17:53 in at least one interview also called 17:56 through your execution 17:59 what's your reaction I wonder when it is 18:03 that he thinks America was great because 18:06 if you remember what we did to traders 18:08 in 1776 and afterwards we made them a 18:11 president we're a country that was born 18:15 from an act of treason against the 18:17 government that had run out of control 18:20 now this is not to say that breaking the 18:23 rules is something that should happen 18:24 all the time but we should always make a 18:27 distinction that right and wrong is a 18:31 very different standard than legal and 18:34 illegal the law is no substitute for 18:37 morality here for then are you saying 18:41 what you did was right 18:43 I think your legal are both i would not 18:47 have done it if I didn't believe it was 18:50 right but you want to acknowledge it was 18:52 illegal 18:53 I definitely would say it's pretty 18:57 sketchy there but look every act of 19:04 progression in our nation's history has 19:08 involved tension with law whether it was 19:11 the abolition of slavery weather was the 19:14 enfranchisement of women whether it was 19:17 the birth of our nation laws were broken 19:20 and that's because the laws were wrong 19:23 there is a lot of talk up there 19:27 including among top ranking intelligence 19:30 officials that Vladimir Putin may hand 19:33 you over to the United States as a good 19:37 well well gesture to the Trump 19:40 administration how concerned / nervous 19:44 are you about that possibility 19:48 I'm actually kind of encouraged 19:50 encouraged for completely different 19:53 reasons uh it wasn't so many years ago 19:58 the people were saying this guy's 20:00 Russian spy but countries don't give up 20:03 their spies and if my recent criticism 20:07 of the Russian government's internet 20:08 policies criticisms of the Human Rights 20:11 records have been so severe that even my 20:16 greatest critics in the intelligence 20:17 community are now saying oh yeah he's a 20:19 liability they want to get him out of 20:21 there 20:21 that's the vindication of indication of 20:26 what the fact that i'm independent the 20:29 fact that i have always worked on behalf 20:31 of the United States and the fact that 20:33 Russia doesn't own me 20:34 in fact the Russian government may see 20:37 me as sort of a liability so you 20:39 wouldn't mind if Putin said extradited 20:43 you and said here we go president Trump 20:46 wouldn't I mean that would obviously be 20:49 something that would bother me that 20:50 would obviously be something that would 20:52 be a threat to my liberty and to my life 20:54 but what I'm saying here is that you 20:59 can't have it both ways you can't say 21:01 this guy is a bad guy who's like a 21:03 Russian tool or something like that at 21:05 the same time you say he's going to be 21:07 traded away what I'm proud of is the 21:11 fact that every decision that i made i 21:13 can defend another option for you as a 21:16 plea deal 21:17 what can you tell us about the ongoing 21:19 conversations between your legal team in 21:22 the Justice Department I can't get into 21:25 any confidential legal conversations 21:27 what i can say is what's been made 21:28 public so far which is that I've only 21:32 ever had a single condition for 21:34 returning to the United States 21:36 volunteering to go to court and very 21:39 likely to prison and that's the 21:42 government guarantee of Sarah 21:43 and open trial where they don't try to 21:46 control what I can say and what the jury 21:49 can hear they've never agreed to this 21:51 and in fact even though we've made that 21:53 our grounds they've responded with only 21:56 a single promise and that's they say we 21:59 won't torture you 22:01 you don't believe you'll be able to get 22:04 a fair trial in the United States it's 22:06 not possible to get a fair trial under 22:09 the laws with which I've been charged 22:11 the Espionage Act of 1917 you're 22:13 referring to 22:14 that's correct this is a law which 22:17 prohibits an individual who's charged 22:19 with this crime from telling the jury 22:20 why it is that they did what they did 22:23 this is fundamentally against the idea 22:27 of a fair trial if you can't explain 22:29 yourself to the jury why have a trial at 22:31 all how much present time would you be 22:33 willing to serve I don't put a number on 22:36 it instead i look at it from a very 22:37 different perspective we're going into a 22:42 World again we're here now where 22:45 whistleblowers are more important than 22:47 ever 22:47 what kind of a message would i be 22:51 sending if in perhaps the most 22:56 responsible case of modern 22:57 whistle-blowing that we have now we're 23:01 no clear harm has occurred that's been 23:03 demonstrated by evidence but clear 23:06 public benefits have occurred the 23:09 President of the United States himself 23:11 said this conversation started by the 23:14 asset relations started bunny has made 23:17 us stronger as a nation congress passed 23:20 the first significant reforms to us 23:22 intelligence laws in 14 years the courts 23:26 themselves found the documents that i 23:28 revealed showed unlawful and likely 23:32 unconstitutional activities on the part 23:34 of government given all that given how 23:39 much we benefit if I go to prison for 23:43 the rest of my life 23:44 what's that going to do for the next 23:47 person who sees something illegal who 23:50 sees something unconstitutional realizes 23:52 they may be the only one who can do 23:54 something about it 23:55 chelsea manning is serving 35 years in 23:59 prison 24:00 why shouldn't you I think the right 24:03 answer to look at here is why is chelsea 24:05 manning in prison for 35 years is the 24:07 suggest sentence 24:09 this is an individual who revealed 24:11 unambiguous war crimes there are some 24:15 arguments that say she went too far 24:17 maybe she released too much but we know 24:21 now is that information was released in 24:23 2009 we're now in 2016 and with each 24:29 passing year it gets harder and harder 24:30 to demonstrate any real harm that came 24:33 as a result of these disclosures but the 24:35 benefits are clear she's trying to take 24:38 her life twice this year has she not 24:42 suffered enough potentially what would a 24:45 plea deal look like for you you know I'm 24:49 not actually sure because I'm not a 24:50 lawyer but the idea here is when most 24:55 people who are involved in government or 24:58 the intelligence community are involved 25:00 in some sort of case where the 25:03 government goes this person was acting 25:05 in good faith they were trying to do 25:07 right by the American people but they 25:08 did break the law 25:10 no charges were brought for the brought 25:12 very minimally perhaps the best-known 25:15 case in recent history here is General 25:17 Petraeus who shared information that was 25:20 far more highly classified than I ever 25:23 did with journalists and he shared this 25:26 information not with the public for 25:29 their benefit but with his biographer 25:31 and lover for personal benefit 25:35 conversations that had 25:37 information detailed information about 25:41 military special access programs it's 25:45 classified above top secret 25:46 conversations with the president's on 25:48 when the government came after him 25:52 they charged him with a misdemeanor he 25:54 never spent a single day in jail despite 25:57 the type of classified information he 26:00 exposed when we had the most senior 26:03 intelligence official United States 26:05 general james clapper who lied to the 26:08 American people and all of Congress on 26:10 camera under oath in the Senate in a 26:14 famous exchange with ron wyden does the 26:17 NSA collect any type of data at all on 26:21 millions or hundreds of millions of 26:24 Americans no sir it does not 26:29 not wittingly there are cases where they 26:34 could inadvertently perhaps collect but 26:39 not not winning one he wasn't even 26:41 charged with giving false testimony to 26:44 congress under oath as he did is a 26:47 felony 26:47 it's typically punished by three to five 26:49 years in prison are you suggesting 26:51 there's a double standard between 26:53 high-ranking officials and lower-level 26:55 employees such as yourself i'm not sure 26:58 i'm suggesting I think everyone's aware 27:00 of it we have a two-tiered system of 27:02 justice in the United States where 27:04 people who are either 27:06 well connected to government where they 27:08 have access to incredible amount of 27:09 resources get very light punishment the 27:12 house permanent Select Committee on 27:14 Intelligence conducted an exhaustive to 27:17 your investigation into your actions in 27:20 a letter to President Obama the 27:22 committee wrote quote he's not a patriot 27:25 he's not a whistleblower he's a criminal 27:28 what's your reaction to that 27:30 characterization I can see it's funny 27:33 how quickly the President himself 27:34 distance himself by from this report in 27:37 his recent remarks by saying that mr. 27:40 Snowden raise legitimate concerns 27:43 but in direct response to this report I 27:47 would actually say anything instead i'll 27:49 use the words of three-time Pulitzer 27:52 prize-winning journalist one of the most 27:54 respected in the United States Barton 27:56 Gellman the Washington Post who has seen 27:59 the material that i turned over and 28:02 knows that in fact that was not true he 28:04 found that four out of the six claims 28:07 that the Intelligence Committee made in 28:11 this report for verifiably false he had 28:14 the evidence to show this the fifth one 28:17 was species the best and the sixth was 28:20 what that I faked a sick day when I was 28:23 trying to get out to meet with 28:25 journalists which let's be real i am 28:27 completely totally guilty of 28:29 he said the report was not only 28:33 inaccurate not only in curious but try 28:37 fling 28:38 Admiral Mike Rogers the director of the 28:42 NSA told yahoo news this year that your 28:45 disclosures accelerated move by 28:47 terrorists to encrypted communications 28:49 and made it easier for them to plan 28:52 attacks like the one in Paris without 28:55 being detected he said quote no one 28:58 should doubt for one minute 29:00 there has been an impact because of your 29:02 disclosures it's fully that he says that 29:05 because he's also served on the record 29:07 to journalists that when he looks around 29:09 the sky is not falling the NSA's 29:11 operations have not been significantly 29:14 hindered and they're still very much in 29:16 business 29:16 moreover we know for a fact at this 29:19 point that the Paris attackers were not 29:22 using encrypted communications and 29:24 effect we're using simple burner phones 29:26 of the type that drug dealers were using 29:28 back in the nineteen nineties even if 29:31 there is not any specific concrete 29:33 evidence that your actions aided 29:36 terrorists 29:37 there's also no specific concrete 29:39 evidence that they didn't and even 29:42 Barton Gellman the reporter you just 29:45 mentioned one of the journalists with 29:46 whom you share classified documents said 29:48 quote I do not share the view of some of 29:51 his fans that he did no damage 29:54 at all and you at least acknowledge that 29:57 damage might have been done as a result 29:59 of your disclosures I don't agree with 30:01 him in that regard 30:03 what I will say is this whenever we're 30:06 talking about damage without evidence 30:09 this is an intentional effort to change 30:12 the conversation from the concrete harms 30:16 of these programs that violated the 30:18 rights of every man woman and child in 30:21 the United States and people around the 30:23 world and instead talk about the 30:25 theoretical risks of journalism what 30:28 Barton Gellman was acknowledging there 30:30 was that yes it's possible that 30:32 officials could have been embarrassed by 30:34 this reputations could have been damaged 30:38 by this and the intelligence community 30:40 considers this to be a matter of 30:42 national security but I would argue 30:46 there's more than two national security 30:49 than reputation that are we talking in 30:52 fairness more than simply reputations 30:56 for being embarrassed virtually every US 30:59 security official current and former 31:01 agrees that these disclosures made it 31:05 more difficult to track the movements of 31:08 organizations like Isis and other 31:10 terrorist groups i don't agree with that 31:13 now of course it's reasonable to presume 31:15 that these things could happen 31:17 terrorists read the newspaper too but 31:20 i'll tell you terrorists already knew 31:23 the NSA was coming after them and what 31:26 we saw in the newspaper wasn't anything 31:28 that they didn't already understand what 31:31 was revealed in the newspaper was only a 31:33 surprise to Americans and ordinary 31:36 citizens how many documents were 31:38 provided to journalists this is a good 31:41 question but i have to say remember i am 31:43 still under active investigation so I 31:45 can't answer FBI style questions on 31:47 camera because the number has ranged 31:49 from 50,000 to as you said 1.5 million 31:53 you can't give us any idea what i can 31:56 tell you is the journalists and there 31:58 are several of them have consistently 32:00 said the government's numbers are 32:03 Ludacris over estimates you also reveal 32:06 to a reporter at the South China Morning 32:08 Post that the u.s. was conducting 32:10 surveillance of people and organizations 32:13 in China 32:14 why did you do that wasn't that a 32:16 violation of US security national 32:20 interest 32:21 I don't think so at all the type of 32:23 surveillance that we were talking about 32:26 was not the Chinese government it was 32:28 not about the Chinese military was not 32:30 about any valid intelligence targets 32:32 this was about civilian infrastructure 32:35 hospitals universities that have been 32:39 digitally hacked and compromised by the 32:41 united states that caused a real threat 32:43 to life now it's not to say the US 32:46 should engage in any hacking but when we 32:49 start hacking hospitals 32:51 this is something that we as a public 32:54 needs to decide if it's a step too far 32:57 you're not anti-surveillance read large 33:00 are you absolutely not if it's 33:02 specifically targeted its authorized by 33:06 the court based on showing of probable 33:08 cause that the court the judge says look 33:12 we think this person is up to no good 33:15 you've shown evidence that they're up to 33:17 no good go after them 33:19 that's how it should be done I asked 33:21 about that interview because they're 33:23 speculation there was some kind of quid 33:25 pro quo with China you give us 33:27 information you can come to Hong Kong 33:29 let's be clear here I never provided any 33:32 information to China the journalists in 33:34 question was an Australian working for 33:37 the south china morning post there are 33:39 freelancers reduce so working for a 33:42 publication and China and I knew them is 33:44 Australian journalist 33:46 so you didn't even know that it was 33:48 going to be in a newspaper in China I 33:50 knew it would be in a newspaper writing 33:52 a wet newspaper this was not my concern 33:55 what about this notion of a quid pro quo 33:57 that people think there was some kind of 33:58 under-the-table deal 34:00 well it's clear that's not the case 34:01 because we've had I would have stayed at 34:03 home you arrived in hong kong on May 34:06 tenth 2013 met with journalist Glenn 34:09 Greenwald and Laura Poitras on jun 1st 34:11 there have been some questions about 34:16 where you were and what you were doing 34:18 during those 10 days before you met with 34:21 those journalists times in the mirror 34:23 hotel waiting for those journalists what 34:26 people sort of miss in this conspiracy 34:29 theory is only held by a few people is 34:32 that the journalists were able to 34:34 immediately travel they had to talk to 34:36 the newspapers get permission had to get 34:38 legal backing they had to get funding 34:40 and get their institutions on board to 34:43 actually travel to Hong Kong what were 34:46 you doing during those 10 days and 34:48 waiting for them to come i was in the 34:50 hotel room the whole time in citizen for 34:54 the tension of those moments in Hong 34:56 Kong is palpable you're seeing going 34:59 through a series of security rituals 35:01 unplugging phones covering your head as 35:04 you type passwords into your computer 35:06 you seemed keenly aware of a target 35:10 being on your back 35:12 could you describe those days for us 35:14 before you went public what that was 35:16 like you know it's those moments it's 35:24 it's it's actually difficult to watch 35:27 them on film it because the pressure the 35:32 stress was so great 35:36 then I was almost in a like a flag state 35:42 you you lose your emotional a fact you 35:47 can't be as higher as low as you 35:49 normally are you only focused on one 35:51 thing and that's mission before you left 35:54 Hong Kong I know you reportedly went to 35:57 the Russian embassy can you tell me why 36:00 and what you did there 36:01 now there's a crazy conspiracy theory 36:04 out there that was a Chinese violence in 36:06 China or Russia inspiron Russia they say 36:09 you know I'm partying in the Russian 36:11 embassy having birthday parties is 36:13 completely wrong and this is the reason 36:15 why that wasn't a newspaper report that 36:18 was carried around the world somebody 36:20 raised this is a conspiracy theory and 36:22 nobody could confirm it because it 36:24 didn't happen after you were granted 36:27 asylum in Russia in august of 2013 you 36:30 issued a statement through WikiLeaks 36:32 criticizing the Obama administration for 36:35 showing no respect for international and 36:37 domestic law and thanking Russia do you 36:41 believe Russia has more respect for 36:43 international off in the united states 36:44 and i think this is kind of false choice 36:48 here you're saying who's worse who you 36:49 want to be upon are you going to condemn 36:51 the United States know the United States 36:54 does wonderful things for human rights 36:55 in many areas around the world but we 36:58 have to remember that nobody's perfect 37:01 Russia has a very poor human-rights 37:03 record in many areas but when they can 37:06 do something good when they can actually 37:08 stand up for the rights of a dissident 37:11 shouldn't we applaud them it's very easy 37:15 nowadays for a Chinese dissident or 37:18 Russian dissident to get asylum anywhere 37:21 in the world 37:21 right that you know doors are open 37:23 everywhere but I applied for asylum in 37:26 21 different countries around the world 37:28 all throughout Western your countries 37:30 like France Germany like Norway like 37:33 Sweden and every time they got close to 37:37 saying yes let's grab this man asylum 37:39 phones will ring the government from the 37:42 vice president united states from the 37:44 Secretary of State saying if you protect 37:47 this man regardless of whether it's 37:51 right or room regardless of whether it's 37:52 lawful and multiple we will take some 37:55 talent or reaction should we applaud 37:57 that 37:58 that doesn't mean the United States is 38:01 some human rights monster but we should 38:03 recognize on a case-by-case basis that 38:06 sometimes we can do right 38:07 sometimes we can do wrong can you see 38:09 the irony and you the poster child for 38:11 civil liberties and privacy finding 38:14 sanctuary in a place that has a little 38:17 respect for either 38:19 absolutely but let's again look at this 38:22 i have been a tireless advocate for the 38:26 expansion of Russian internet freedom 38:28 since I've been in Russia Russia 38:30 recently passed what's called the euro 38:32 vaya law locally it's called the Big 38:36 Brother law that's an internet 38:38 surveillance law i said on passage it 38:41 was a dark day for all Russians it was 38:43 taking money from the average Russian 38:45 citizen it was narrowing the scope of 38:48 their rights 38:49 this is a wound on Russian society and 38:52 believe me that's unlikely to win me any 38:55 friends in Russian government but it's 38:58 something that needs to be said I know 39:01 that you have said you did not provide 39:03 any documents or share any intelligence 39:06 with the Russian government but i want 39:08 to ask you about something that was 39:11 published last June where a member of 39:13 Russia's Parliament publicly conceded 39:15 that you did in fact share intelligence 39:18 with the Russian government 39:20 what did you make of that I'm really 39:22 glad you asked that because this is a 39:25 broadly misreported point this 39:28 individual didn't actually say that it's 39:31 a mistranslation based on 39:33 NPR report where this individual in 39:35 Russian said let's be frank I think they 39:39 were speculating that Russia services 39:42 would of course approached me and that i 39:44 would share information with them it 39:46 didn't happen 39:47 I've never shared information with 39:48 Russia's intelligence services let me 39:50 ask you about Vladimir Putin have you 39:52 ever met him I have not met before this 39:56 kind of surprising thing I mean in the 40:00 United States the number of people who 40:01 meet the president's pretty limited he's 40:04 a busy guy he's got a lot going on but 40:07 people seem to think that I'm going ice 40:09 skating with Vladimir Putin Red Square 40:11 you know every weekend we're writing 40:12 polar bears over the tundra 40:14 ya know I've never met the Russian 40:17 president I have no intention to do you 40:18 have to be careful what you say about 40:20 him giving given that this country is 40:23 provided you sanctuary 40:26 I don't know before I am supposed to 40:28 have done a very good job you have been 40:30 critical of him haven't you 40:31 I have and you feel comfortable doing so 40:34 this you know some people live very 40:42 careful lives 40:44 I haven't done a very good job at that 40:47 its safety was my number one priority 40:51 I never would have left hawaii i would 40:53 still be working at the NSA making 40:56 extraordinary amount of money for very 40:58 little work violating Americans rights 41:01 no one would know what was going on 41:04 today and yes you know I'm never going 41:08 to leave live a completely stable life 41:12 even if I important even if I return in 41:15 the united states there are a lot of 41:17 people who will disagree with the 41:20 decisions that I made but I'm 41:22 comfortable with them i realize that the 41:26 laws of the united states have been 41:27 changed for the better the world the 41:30 President of the United States for the 41:31 first time in our history has provided 41:34 privacy protections to people who aren't 41:36 Americans the decisions of result 41:38 the courts and Congress are finally at 41:42 least starting to play the role that 41:44 they were intended to play no matter the 41:47 cost i can be happy with them 41:49 you have said that you raised concerns 41:52 about excessive NSA surveillance with 41:55 tents superiors and colleagues but only 41:58 one email has been made public 12 a 42:01 lawyer at the NSA with the legal inquiry 42:03 critics they had nothing to do with 42:06 releasing these documents if you 42:08 attempted to go through the proper 42:10 channels said or at least reached out to 42:13 colleagues why didn't share you should 42:15 you saved those communications as 42:19 evidence 42:20 so this is a really good question right 42:22 because it's one of those that seems 42:23 like you know why doesn't have this 42:25 first off I'm not an email administrator 42:27 so i didn't have access to everybody's 42:28 email but these aren't things you put in 42:31 writing an essay saying i think the NS 42:35 is breaking the law 42:37 I think maybe this program is violating 42:39 the Constitution is a career-ending move 42:42 and the people that I talk to first 42:45 my supervisor said you know hey we can 42:48 talk about this but you shouldn't rock 42:50 the boat and don't write this down 42:53 why haven't you given any names to 42:55 corroborate the fact that you did in 42:58 fact try to go through the so-called 43:00 proper channels because if I did that 43:03 they would end the careers of these 43:05 individuals right if these individuals 43:08 spoke on their own without waiting for 43:09 me they would go to jail but there's a 43:12 broader point here and this is the idea 43:14 the proper channels work that they exist 43:18 they are available the whistleblower 43:21 process is fundamentally broken in the 43:25 intelligence community can be said that 43:27 there is no such thing at all the proper 43:28 channels are really a drain into which 43:33 people concerns and cares are flushed in 43:37 2014 43:38 glenn greenwald one of the journalists 43:40 with who you worked said quote the most 43:43 shocking and significant stories have 43:45 yet to be reported 43:47 are there still bombshells 43:50 in this cache of documents that has have 43:54 still not seen the light of day I was 43:57 very careful when I came forward again 43:59 to make sure that i never revealed a 44:02 single secret this I believe quite 44:07 strongly is the role of free press in 44:09 our society 44:11 this is why the First Amendment first 44:13 they're charged with making these 44:16 decisions about what we should know when 44:18 and how they should contest the 44:21 government monopoly on controlling 44:23 information particularly the class white 44:25 spaces so i'm not going to say if 44:29 there's something else coming or when 44:30 but I will say this in 2013 before this 44:38 started the idea that the government was 44:42 collecting records of every phone call 44:44 in the united states was a conspiracy 44:45 theory it's not anymore 44:48 some Americans might say hey we 44:51 appreciate your shedding light on this 44:53 but for us security and 14 a terrorist 44:57 attack is more important than privacy 45:01 this is you know a very common sort of 45:05 throwaway argument from people who are 45:07 just trying to would talking about the 45:09 topic too much to say you have nothing 45:11 to hide you have nothing to fear you 45:13 know why do you care 45:15 they don't think about the origin of 45:17 that quote which is literally piece of 45:20 Nazi propaganda from Joseph Campbell's 45:22 this is not to say dns AR Nazis they're 45:26 not the stock see these are good people 45:28 doing bad things for what they believe a 45:31 good reasons 45:32 privacy is the foundation of all other 45:36 rights i would say arguments you don't 45:42 care about privacy because you have 45:44 nothing to hide is no different than 45:46 saying you don't care about free speech 45:47 because you have nothing to say what is 45:49 the best thing in your view that came 45:52 from these revelations 45:56 before 2013 i think americans all felt 46:03 something was changing but they couldn't 46:06 quite put their finger on it when it 46:07 came to policy particularly this idea of 46:10 counterterrorism we heard terrorism 46:13 terrorism we're trying to keep you safe 46:14 over and over again but it seemed that 46:19 these programs weren't actually keeping 46:21 us safe 46:22 we didn't know it at the time but the 46:25 NSA was tapping every phone in the 46:26 United States and yet it didn't stop the 46:28 Boston Marathon bombings we were 46:31 collecting all the Internet 46:32 communications as they cross the border 46:34 and solve something was going on but 46:36 these were not the things that wanted 46:38 terrorist attacks the things that were 46:40 effective the things that worked for the 46:42 methods that we always used traditional 46:44 good old-fashioned police work that cop 46:47 on the street who saw someone acting 46:50 suspicious limited intelligence exactly 46:53 our founding fathers said he would 46:56 sacrifice Essential Liberty for a little 47:00 temporary safety deserves neither and 47:03 we'll get them either 47:05 this is very much what we are waking up 47:11 to the idea that in many ways with the 47:15 public has lost their seat at the table 47:18 of government as an equal partner I know 47:20 your residency permit runs out at in 47:23 2017 if it's renewed are you prepared to 47:26 live in Russia for the rest of your life 47:28 and what are your other options if it's 47:31 not renewed this is actually not my 47:35 first foreign posting on behalf of the 47:37 United States my work for the CIA i was 47:40 in Switzerland when I worked for the NSA 47:42 I was in Japan the way I look at it this 47:45 is just more of the same it's a very 47:47 different situation and I didn't choose 47:49 this particular posting but look at this 47:53 is the best way i can serve my country 47:55 I'm looking forward to doing it 47:57 Lindsay Mills your girlfriend moved here 47:59 in 2014 48:01 how is she adjusting 48:04 to her life here in Russia you know it's 48:09 surprising how adaptable people are it's 48:12 not easy living in exile for anyone you 48:16 know it's not the place where you belong 48:17 it's not a language that you studied in 48:19 advance 48:21 it's tough to figure out how to make 48:25 into life but she is an incredible 48:31 person because I signed up for this I 48:34 knew what was coming I was volunteering 48:36 for these risks 48:38 I couldn't tell her in advance because I 48:40 did the FBI would treat her as an 48:43 accomplice they were trying to put her 48:44 in prison instead of me and basically 48:47 said I want not going to be home when 48:49 you get back 48:50 yes and I mean it imagine that probably 48:54 makes me the world's worst boyfriend but 48:57 she didn't hate me for in fact she 49:02 seemed to love me more because Shh 49:09 she knew me before I had a job she knew 49:17 me before I was making good money and 49:20 she cared about me then and as I climb 49:24 the ladder as I gained all these 49:26 clearances as I became much more senior 49:29 and successful individual she cared 49:32 about me just as much but when I lost it 49:35 all when I gave it all up because I saw 49:40 something wrong something I believed 49:42 needed to be said she said she just fell 49:46 in love with me all over again and I can 49:51 never thank you enough for that 49:52 what do you miss most about the United 49:55 States family of course that's always 49:57 the thing you know they can come and see 49:59 me but you've got all these travel 50:01 arrangements and logistics you got to go 50:03 on an airplane ride who doesn't miss 50:05 that when you look back at the last 50:08 three years 50:10 was it worth it absolutely I would do it 50:13 again no regrets no regrets at all 50:16 people listening to this might think are 50:20 you kidding no regrets 50:23 well I do have to deal with some tough 50:25 interviews now honestly I'm glad we can 50:28 have these conversations and I hope that 50:31 we work to make in America that never 50:35 loses the opportunity to do this 50:37 journalism is a hard job I understand 50:41 that 50:43 and I think it's clear now then perhaps 50:46 ever before that if we don't make sure 50:51 that sources and journalists can have 50:56 these conversations and not outside 50:59 borders where you've got to fly around 51:01 the world added but at home before we 51:05 get to this point where it's such a 51:06 problem we're losing a lot of what makes 51:09 us great do you think you'll ever be 51:11 able to convince at people who have very 51:14 little sympathy for you who don't 51:16 believe you should be walking around a 51:19 free man here in Moscow but instead you 51:22 should be in prison can 51:26 what do you say to those people who just 51:28 do not understand your point of view I'm 51:31 not going to ask them to trust me I'm 51:34 not going to ask them to believe in me 51:35 because i think americans have had 51:38 enough of people saying trust us 51:43 that was the problem that got us here in 51:45 the first place but what I will say is 51:48 this in 2013 51:51 it was pretty easy to say we don't know 51:55 what's coming 51:55 this guy probably took a lot of risks 51:58 this is really responsible this is going 51:59 to cause harm but in 2016 52:03 these officials have had every 52:06 opportunity to show evidence that harm 52:09 came as a result and they haven't 52:12 do you really think if the government 52:15 can show somebody was hurt a program was 52:18 damaged we've gone dark and can't track 52:21 dangerous people they wouldn't leak that 52:24 criticism that wouldn't be on the front 52:26 page New York Times by the end of the 52:28 day I don't think so and I hope maybe in 52:31 time you'll think the same and snow 52:35 thank you so much for spending all this 52:37 time talking to us we really appreciate 52:39 it thank you very much



















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